Trust Physics: Where Trust Breaks Down

Most of us think trust breaks in big moments. Hanna Miller thinks it leaks, quietly, consistently, in all the small ways we avoid showing up as ourselves in relationship.

In the Season 2 premiere of Inside Conscience-Driven Leadership, Hanna Miller and Julie Euber open the Trust Physics framework with the question at the center of it all: why do people who genuinely care about their relationships keep doing things that damage them?

The episode moves through two concepts that turn out to be the same thing from different angles — directness and integrity — and all the predictable ways both fall apart.

🧭 Directness — Not rudeness. Not "telling it like it is." Directness is giving people what they need to succeed, and recognizing how often we withhold it: accommodating, deflecting, masking with "devil's advocate," or just deciding it's not worth it.

🔍 Integrity — Rooted in the word integer, meaning whole. Not just following through, but being consistent enough with yourself that people know what to expect from you, even when things get hard.

⚡ The gap between intention and action — Most people's intentions are fine. What actually happens is where the gap opens. Trust Physics is about understanding why — and what follows from that, reliably, every time.

Hanna names the move we all recognize but rarely call out — the accommodation, the silence, the explosion — and why every one of them does the opposite of what we intended.

Season 2 presents a framework for understanding what's actually happening when trust quietly erodes.

0:00 Intro
0:27 What Is Trust Physics?
3:31 Who Is a Leader?
6:51 Squishy Words
9:09 Possibility Models
10:07 Conscience vs. Capital
11:57 Trust as Physics, Not Currency
13:04 Directness
15:42 How We Avoid Directness
22:05 Accountability as Punishment
26:49 Integrity
30:49 The Bridge Analogy

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Inside Conscience-Driven Leadership explores leadership rooted in intuition, responsibility, and a deep commitment to building systems that serve people. Hosted by Hanna Miller and Julie Euber.

Learn more at consciencedrivenleadership.com

Share your thoughts or questions at podcast@consciencedrivenleadership.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I think leadership is something that we really need to open up the umbrella of that term. We tend to think of leadership as meaning somebody who's a boss, right? Leadership is a work-related term. And I completely disagree. Leadership is for anyone who takes responsibility for their part in the relationships in their life. Welcome to Inside Conscience-Driven Leadership.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

I'm your host, Hannah Miller. And I am Julie Uber, co-conspirator and self-described CDL leader. Wonderful. I concur.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Conscience-driven leaders are driven to their leadership by not by ambition, but by a sense of responsibility to the people they lead. They really care about clearing the obstacles out of the way so that people can do their best work and feel really purposeful in the work.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Yeah. And this season we're going to be focusing on a really key aspect of this model, and that is trust physics. So trust physics are really an exciting aspect of it. And I know we're going to dive into some really specific aspects of that today, Hannah. Do you want to share a little bit about this episode and what our focus will be? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

So trust physics is the relational piece of conscience-driven leadership, which makes it a natural entry point, but also kind of the most important because as conscience-driven leaders, since we're driven by the relationships we have with people, how to do, how to do trust and accountability is really critical to making that happen. Trust physics is rooted in the subjects, honestly, that come up in my consulting and coaching practice on a daily basis. Since I wrote the book Trust Physics, literally every professional conversation I've had has included. Actually, I just wrote a book called Trust Physics, and there's a whole chapter on this topic. And it's not the same chapter. It's always a different chapter that I'm talking to clients about. But trust physics addresses the issues that I find leaders struggle with every single day.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Yeah, fantastic. And I know today we're going to be talking about directness and integrity as key kind of contexts to this. And when I think about trust physics, the way that I think about it is it's how to hold people accountable in a way that drives relationships forward, not down. You know, how you show up honestly without breaking a relationship. And it's how we all stay whole in our connections with each other. You know, it's it's a way to make sure that your actions really speak louder than your intentions. Would you say that's true?

SPEAKER_01 2:34

I think maybe it's a way to make sure your actions are aligned with your intentions. Yeah, that makes sense. Actually, because uh I think we often our intentions are usually right. I think most intent people's intention is usually, you know, what they intend to happen and what actually happens is usually where the gap is. And so I think trust physics addresses how that gap opens up between what you wanted to happen and what actually happened.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Totally. Because if you state your intentions, if you even get that far of even telling people what your intentions are, if your actions don't back that piece up, then you're not going to move forward in the way that you intended.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Absolutely. Because if what you say you mean what you meant to do and what you did, if that those things aren't landing the same on someone, they aren't gonna believe e they they they're gonna believe your actions more than they believe what you say you meant or what you what you say you intended.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah, absolutely. And before we kind of jump into these kind of contextual ideas, um, who is this for? Who is a leader under this model that you're looking at, Hannah? That thank you for that question.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Uh leader, I think leadership is something that we really need to open up the umbrella of that term. We tend to think of leadership as meaning somebody who's a boss, right? Leadership is a work-related term. And I completely disagree. Leadership is is for anyone who feels anyone who takes responsibility for their part in the relationships in their life. And those can be any relationships. Obviously, if you are a boss, if you're a CEO or an executive director or any kind of a team leader in your work, you have responsibility for the relationships of the people that you supervise. But we're friends and I take responsibility for my part of our relationship. And I know you take responsibility for your part of our relationship. That's what makes our friendship so great, right? Like when you get to work, CDLs love each other, right? Like we because we get we get the same vibe, we want the same things. But um, and that's that's the ideal, is you're when you have any relationship with somebody where they want to stay whole as a person and you want to stay whole as a person, it's really easy to respect boundaries. It's way harder when people don't know what wholeness looks like or feels like. It's harder when there are people who actively benefit from you not being whole and leading in those relationships is where things get really tricky, whether that's in the workplace, in a friendship, in your family, in your partnership. It can be, you know, it's any relationship that you're in. I think leaders are people who recognize their role in moving a relationship forward. That's beautiful. So anyone could be a leader no matter what. I think anyone who thinks relationships are important to them is probably a conscience-driven leader.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yeah, no, I I love that. And I agree with it because I think that sometimes leadership is just a piece of who you are. Uh, and I'm I yeah, I can only speak for myself and how that feels for me, but I know that there are other people that feel that way too. That leadership is just um an exciting way that you can impact the world together with other people. Absolutely. It's not a title, it's a state of being. Yeah. And I think it's important to clarify that. Uh recently, so I I run a nonprofit in science education in Tucson, Arizona called SARSEF. Um, I love it. I love my job. And um, something we did in our recent strategic planning is that we were intentional about creating a description of what we meant by leadership because we talk a lot about how everyone in the organization is a leader, whether it's of a project, of a function, or of entire um, you know, sections of the org. Like everyone is a leader in their own way. But something I noticed is that people were interpreting that differently. And talking about leadership meant a lot of different things. And it reminded me of this amazing book I read. It's called The Ancient Art of Thinking for Yourself. Uh, beautiful book, highly recommend. And a quote that I've pulled out from it is ideology floats through language like word clouds, which I think is so cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

I want to unpack that. Ideology floats through language like word clouds. I love that because I I encounter this all the time. Like people, there are these squishy words that people use in leadership that I could they drive me crazy. We're gonna talk about one of them today because it's integrity. But another one that makes me nuts is respect. Oh my God. Like respect, what do you mean by respect? Because respect what, respect how, what does respect mean to you versus another person? Like respect means a very different thing to every person. And I'm somebody who, like based on my talents, I'm really good at understanding what someone means to say and understanding what you words to use to so they hear what I mean to say. So for me, that translation is kind of natural and automatic. But I know for most people and a lot of my work revolves around translating what people are trying to say to each other because they just, they just butt heads all the time. And so ideology, I think there's a, I think we don't give enough credit to the ideology at work in our work and in our leadership, regardless of where that leadership is happening.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

And something that the book recommends is if there's something you're really diving into like leadership, find the definitions of that through time and see how it changes and think about what was happening in history when leadership was uh being someone that is an authority that tells everyone what's to do and they do it. You know, and that's not what we meant when we talked about leadership in SARS, but it is a part of the history of that word and the way that people understood their role in leadership. So getting a chance to come together and say, what do we mean as a leader was really important for us. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

I feel like, I feel like that's just true all the time. Like what do we mean by words? Because there's all of history and then there's our individual histories, and we're always bringing our own history into every conversation. And so, yeah, it's so important to know what we mean by these words.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's something that would be cool for our listener to do too, is to really be mindful of what is their definition of leadership when they think of themselves as a leader, what does that mean to them personally? Because it's something different to them than it does maybe even to the two of us. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

And what could it mean? Like what does leadership mean based on your experience of external leaders? And what does it mean when you think of yourself as a leader? And are those definitions the same or are they different? Because you can be a different kind of leader than you've experienced. It's hard. There's something called a possibility model that I is a concept that I'm just obsessed with, which is that as humans, we have a really hard time imagining a future for ourselves that we have not seen someone else embodied. And so we need a possibility model in order to become the full the truest version of ourselves. And some of us grow up in families where the possibility models that we see in our lives are very aligned with who we are, and some of us don't. And you have to meet other people and you have to see other people who give you that potential destination so that you can imagine your own road there. Um, and so my hope, I guess, I guess I hope that we are creating a possibility model for some folks about what leadership can be, because in the world broadly, leadership often means something very different than what we're talking about, right? Like the current standard of leadership is not driven by conscience. It really isn't, right? The capitalist model of leadership is driven by revenue and profit. And that is not centering people. And conscience-driven leadership is very much an antidote to that. And it still leads to profit and sustainability in business, but that's not its primary goal. Its primary goal is the people who do the work. The outcome of investing in people is the success of the business. But and it actually isn't very effective to have a business that centers only profit because it does so at the cost of people. And that actually usually it often leads to bad business outcomes, but those are longer term. And when you focus on short-term revenue, you wind up really without conscience. And I think, and I hope our listeners can extrapolate on that because I think it's really prevalent in the world right now.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

I agree. And I think it it brings us back to the idea of trust and how people feel when they engage with you as a person or a business. And it's something I'm really excited about, how you've taken this that you've seen in the world and kind of given it language and given given it more shape so that people can really understand it, because then there is opportunity to build community with other people whose leadership is focused around relationships and others and making this world even better for everyone. And because finding each other is how we find others that we can bounce off of and see those examples and know that this is possible, even in this world that is so driven by revenue.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah. And one of the things about trust physics that I felt was important is we talk about trust in a very currency-based language, typically, right? We talk about I give you trust or you earn my trust or you broke my trust. Like all of the way we talk about trust as a feeling is actually very much like we talk about currency. And I think that that really damages our ability to build it and damages our ability to see how it erodes because it's not, it's not just a feeling and it's not just a currency. It's something, it's a it's structure, it's something that builds and erodes. And so that's why I was inspired to write this book and to think about trust like we think about physics. These are this is a thing that follows laws. You can learn the laws and use it to do amazing things, right? Like since physics was invented as a field, and the more we learn about physics, the more we're able to create bigger and better things and more and more sophisticated things in science. The same is true with trust. Like if we understand the operating system of it, we can interact with that operating system in ways that create magic and really great things.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

I feel like that's a great chance for us to jump into kind of directness and integrity, which seem like really important contexts for this. So uh maybe we can start with directness. Why does that matter in leadership? Directness matters in leadership because people don't know what you're thinking.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

It's a common human problem that we expect everyone around us to know what we're thinking because to us, we're thinking something extremely rational. And so obviously anyone could come to the same conclusion, but we forget that everybody's minds are full of all kinds of different things that we can't anticipate. I do want to clarify that directness does not equate with rudeness. I think we think as a culture that to be direct is rude and they're separate. You can be direct and not rude. A phrase that I I I dislike when people use is, well, I'm just telling it like it is. No, that's an excuse for you to be rude and harmful and to state what you think in a way that you know is gonna be damaging. And so that is not what we're talking about when we talk about directness here.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

I have a really negative response to the phrase devil's advocate. To me, there's a little bit of half-truth to that. This is clearly something that's in someone's mind that is maybe the thing that they don't want to say out loud. So they somehow, you know, just give it to the devil. And I think that instead we should just be having the hard conversations. It it almost makes it so it tries to shift that accountability from you to something more amorphous. And I think that just having those real conversations is going to be more valuable than saying, well, devil's advocate. This isn't me. This is an advocate to the devil. You know, and I feel like that that is a way that people try to be direct while nesting it into something that makes them less accountable.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

It's a way that people mask instead of having integrity. It's a way they they hide their their lack of wholeness in the situation. They're not willing, they're not willing to be accountable for their own thoughts and feelings and things they're about to say. So they're discarding that accountability. And accountability is really the central thing that conscience-driven leaders need. It's the it's the primary tool because alignment is what we need from our from the people we work with in conscience-driven leadership. You know, we we have to have alignment, so we're all moving in the same direction, but accountability is how we enforce that alignment or we insist on that alignment. And so anything that you do that dismisses your own accountability is damaging the relationship because you're not you're not owning what you really think.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

So it's my understanding there's a lot that we do instead of being direct. So there's this way that we mask directness, but there's also just us trying not to be direct. So um I uh the first thing I know that you talk about in your book is we just avoid. Do you have examples of that and like what you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Yeah. And I think what you're talking about masking is a way of avoiding, you know, like that's maybe we're trying, it's it's an attempt to be direct when we don't feel like we can. But there are lots of ways we avoid directness. We tend to think, oh, it's not worth it. Like, oh, it's gonna create great because we're afraid of accountability culturally. We don't know how to do it without damaging the relationship. And so, of course, we want to avoid it because we want to avoid damaging the relationship. And we wind up damaging the relationship by avoiding it. So we think, oh, it's not worth it. We think, oh, I'll just let this slide, they'll figure it out, I'll give them time, et cetera. It's just any way that you know that there's something that you, there's something you wish you could say or there's something you feel like needs to be said, and you find an excuse not to, that's avoiding.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Yeah, and that makes sense. One that really resonated with me is being accommodating instead of being direct about what you need or uh how you see a situation, instead you're really focused on reading that room and knowing what the person on the other side of the booth uh wants to hear uh and needs to hear and kind of bending yourself to what that looks like. It may be to keep the peace, it may be to uh preserve the relationship, even though what you're really doing is degrading that relationship in the process.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Right. Because right, it takes friction to grow. And so if you accommodate and you make everything easy for somebody and you don't show them where they're stepping outside the lines, you're robbing them of the ability to grow stronger.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

And I recognized my the way that I do that is I accommodate recently. I was on a very difficult hike with some friends. And it was one of those hikes that goes down the mountain and then back up. And so once you get to the bottom, uh, you have a long way to go to get to the car. And my mind immediately went to, okay, here I am, someone that just went through, you know, treatment of cancer, getting to know the drugs and how they impact my body. I'm I'm more tired than I normally was, but I'm also still very stubborn. And I also still very much love nature and I want to be out there on those trails. Uh, but once we started up that hill, I just kept thinking, like, oh my gosh, how do I make sure I'm accommodating everyone else on this trail? Like, how do I make sure that my group isn't being held back by me? And they were so good at showing me that that's not what it was. Like I was so grateful every time I needed to stop, they just stared out into the beautiful nature and made sure that I knew that it was okay. And knowing that I didn't have to try to accommodate at the expense of my body in this group was so special and felt like such an important leadership that I was like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna take so much away from this because I see patience in it. I see taking care of the group in a way that doesn't limit them necessarily because they're not there to rush a recent cancer patient up a mountain. That's not what they want to do. What they want to do is spend time with me and other friends and be in nature and look out and see the gorgeousness. But it took time for me to relax into myself and let myself be who I am because there are different cultures out on the trail. There are people that are like, no, we have to get to the car as fast as possible. And no, what these people said is the only rule is we have to get back to the car.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Together and okay. Like we get back to the car and the goal is we get back to the get the car, we all feel good about the day. So you have a bunch of conscience-driven leaders as your friends what you're telling me. We're taking care of you. Yeah, so hard. Those of us conditioned female by the world, right? Like we have so much programming, even if we've worked really hard, even if you know, to overcome all of all of those feelings that we are not enough or that we need to sacrifice. I think conscience-driven leaders, because often are it's easy for us to sacrifice for other people and accommodate other people. Oh, we'll just help them. I think that's probably the easiest avoidance for conscience-driven leaders is oh, I'll just step in for them, I'll just help them out because we're we're we want to be helpful. And it's it's just not always helpful. Another way that we that we avoid directness, well, the outcome of avoiding directness is we explode, right? Like, I don't like I don't like being angry. I don't think you like being angry. I'm sure we both have examples. I'm exploding. I once, my poor technical director, I once threw both my notebook and my purse at my technical director because he just was not getting what I was talking about. In my defense, it was 4 a.m. We had been working 16-hour days for many weeks and we're about to open a show. But still, explosion happens when we haven't been communicating our frustration, right? Like avoiding eventually leads to frustration. Once you've started avoiding, you keep avoiding and then and it builds and builds and builds until we explode at somebody, and then it's completely out of proportion to the thing they just did. They don't understand what's happening, they don't they don't have the context in our mind that we have in our mind of all the times that we have not told them the truth. They just know that, like, oh, right now I made you mad. And it actually makes us seem inconsistent and scary, which is something I think we as conscious servant leaders really don't want to be.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Yeah, I think I have examples too where it was more of an inner explosion. Where I like the other person maybe isn't even there, but I just go into a room and scream.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

What's wrong with this person? How come they don't understand? Right. Why are they such an idiot? Like we turn into all these judgments and Right, how does the relationship recover from that? Like damage has happened at that point.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yeah, absolutely. I think something else that we we do is we we use accountability as a punishment instead of something that can be a kind of long-term journey for a relationship and maintaining that relationship. Um, so when we weaponize accountability, uh, you know, it's something we do to people who've disappointed us. Um, and so then maybe they don't know what your expectations were, but and maybe they do, but that accountability is used as a hammer if they cross that line instead of using it as a conversation in a way to help them grow or a way to really clarify the relationship in deeper ways.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Right. And um we'll get to this when we talk about accountability more, but you know, we've all experienced this kind of accountability, and it's why we're afraid to do it, because we think we've equated accountability with punishment because it's been used that way with us, where, well, I'm gonna hold you accountable because you can't do it yourself, right? Like that this this it's this moral judgment ultimately, right? Like we've we've turned accountability into something you either do or don't do, not something that's relational and a gift of helping somebody understand. And in trust physics, that's how we look at accountability is as something that is meant to help the relationship. But this punishment model is something we all know. We've all been there, right? We've all had those bosses or those reviews of like, well, you need, uh you're gonna need more accountability. So that means that I'm gonna, you know, and that leads into the next one. I'm gonna be more controlling now, right? Like you've proven that you're not trustworthy. So, right, again, worthy of trust. Not that trust is something that builds and and erodes or degrades, but as something that you're worth or not worth. We get this moral judgment, which is also an escape from accountability. Um, and and then we say, Oh, I'm not, I'm not gonna tell you what the real problem is and help you solve it. I'm gonna treat you like you're incapable. And, you know, and that it's a form of punishment to be controlling and to be to have this moral judgment about you as a person because you haven't fulfilled expectations that weren't named in the first place. So bringing us full circle on directness, directness is how we give people the opportunity to be successful. And if we don't give them that, they can't, they then they are doomed to fail unless they happen to just magically be someone who thinks a lot like us.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. And something that I do at my organization in, and it's very genuine, it might sound a little cutesy, but it is it is very true to me is that I celebrate anytime someone brings me their mistake. Anytime they say, I goofed, this happened, I'm like, oh my gosh, you're human. That's amazing. And like we actually get to work through it now because mistakes are going to happen. And if we just take joy in the fact that we can talk to each other and share when these things happen and work through them together, then we come out of it a stronger team and a stronger organization. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

I I hope it's not terrible that I so often equate things to dogs and horses. But this reminds me a lot of the two golden retrievers that I used to have. And if you've ever known a golden retriever, you know they pick up everything in their mouth. And if when a dog picks up something they're not supposed to, you go, Oh my God, don't do that. No, no, no. What are they gonna do? They're gonna run away. So instead, from the time they were little bitty puppies, every time they picked up something they weren't supposed to have, a light bulb, you know, you know, socks that they were gonna eat, papers off the counter, whatever. Our immediate response was, thank you so much. Oh my god, you're such a good puppy. You put you did the thing you were designed to do. You picked this thing up in your mouth, aren't you so great? And they were like, I am so good. And they would come up and be all proud. And it got to the point where anything they picked up, they'd be like, Look what I have. Oh, wow, aren't you special? Thank you so much. I'm gonna take that light bulb before you die. But right, like I learned how to do most human interactions through dogs and horses, uh, mostly horses, but also lots of dogs. So it it always winds up tying together for me. Like, you can't things you can't do with animals, you shouldn't do with people. And it's amazing to me how often people do to humans things they would never do to an animal because it wouldn't work with an animal. And you know what humans are animals. Animals with language. Yeah, that's all we are. So we just have more opportunity to misunderstand each other.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yep. Absolutely. Um, I think that kind of brings us to how integrity kind of goes into this too. I do. I think we're I think we're there.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Integrity is our next important concept.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Yeah. Um, I feel like it really matters in leadership uh because it's when expectations are both named and upheld. Um, you can see the whole system of people and processes and what they're supposed to be doing. And that's all both out loud and truly being upheld.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

And it's something, it's a word we tend to use, you see it on a lot of value statements without a definition. And so I this is something that because clients are always like, well, integrity is important to us, and it'd be like, okay, what do we mean by integrity? And they're like, uh, you say you do what you say you'll do. I'm like, well, yeah, that's certainly part of it. But the root word, the root word of integrity is integer, which if you remember math, you may or may not, is it means entire, it means a whole number, right? And so integrity means wholeness. It is about doing what you say you'll do. There's a phrase my dad has that's always in my head, which is say what you mean, mean what you say, don't say it mean, which is kind of uh, you know, that's the shorthand version of this. How is harder, right? Like uh you can say that and then also be confusing. Um, so I think it's clarity is important and checking to make sure you're understood is an important caveat to that. Um, but yeah, integrity does mean following through on what you say you'll do, but it also means being consistent. It means, and in order to be consistent, you have to be yourself because the less yourself you are or the less whole you are, the harder it is to be consistent in, you know, because having integrity as a leader, a lot of that means, you know, your staff, your team knows if they make a mistake, they're gonna come to you and you're gonna be like, oh, we're gonna do a dance now. So they're not afraid because you've taught them that over time over time through your consistency. And you probably told them that at first they didn't believe you because lots of people say they're gonna do one thing, and then when the actual thing happens that causes an emotional reaction, a very different version comes out. So yeah, integrity is as much about knowing yourself really authentically, so you can remain whole in your relationships with other people.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

I think that's beautiful. And I can see how these two concepts really are important to each other because when you're direct about who you are and what you expect, it can lead to greater integrity within a system and within a relationship. Would you say that's true? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

And when you have integrity and you have that wholeness and you know yourself, it is much easier to be direct because you're not afraid that you will lose part of yourself in the communication. You and you know that any of the things that you could do instead that to avoid or control or punish or accommodate is actually damaging your integrity. Because when there's a problem, if you have integrity, you have to say something. That is what the other person needs in order for them to be whole. And if you have integrity, you want everyone you're in relationship to also be whole and have the opportunity to respond to the reality of the situation.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Yeah. And I think that feels like a kind of brimming excitement to me because it feels like we're truly doing the work together in creating the world we want. Because once we're whole and we can come together and be honest about uh problems we see coming up on the horizon, it just becomes part of that great work that we're doing. And I think that's really exciting.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Well, and you because you know the people you're dealing with are whole, you that's resilience too. You're not worried that you're going, that they're gonna misinterpret something that you say because if they do, they'll be curious, they'll ask you about it. One of the things that I say in the book that I I really love as an image for this is that when we talk about a bridge having integrity, we're not we're not talking about the bridge doing what it says it does. We're talking about every piece of the bridge being in the place it's supposed to be so that the bridge does not collapse. And so integrity allows things to be strong and not collapse.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

That's beautiful. And I think it's a good image for us to to wrap on. What do you think? I think it's great.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

This has been a super fun conversation. I need to give props to Julie for helping structure our conversation. So you'll notice that our second season is going to be a little bit more coherent, and that is entirely due to your brilliant self-startingness to be like, hey, I want to structure this. How does that sound?

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Flippin' fantastic. Thank you. Well, and that takes a lot of trust for you to let me take the incredible work you're doing and build a structure that I see within it. So I, you know, to wrap us up, I want to have our thank yous. And it's a big thank you to you for letting me be on this fun adventure. I really am enjoying it. I'm excited for it.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Thank you for being on this journey. It really helps me so much to have the reflection of it. So we could go on in the Mutual Admiration Society, I think, for longer than the podcast. So I will move on to also thank everyone who collaborated on the Trust Physics book. There were many people who read and offered suggestions and feedback. And I thank you all. I want to thank Anna Miller, our amazing podcast producer. She is not my alter ego. It is a real person whose name just happens to match mine. And also, of course, thank you to the audience for listening to us because us talking to each other is fun. Us talking to each other with you listening is even more fun. You can find us on our website, conscience drivenleadership.com. Uh, and there's a lot more information there about trust physics. You can get the book on trust physics on the website. We will catch you next time. Can't wait. See you soon. Bye. Bye.